Getting real about relationships and attachment with Desiree Pais
EP 35

Getting real about relationships and attachment with Desiree Pais

Show Notes:

Today, I’m joined by Desirée Pais, the founder of Our conversation unfolds organically and deeply on relationships, how to exist in them as our most authentic selves, and how to clarify what we really want. We explore the difference between fate and destiny, how she created, and the roadmap to healing that triggers can provide. 

Desirée and I share what it means for us to be in long-term relationships. We both had to work through a lot of trauma, shadow work, the wounded feminine aspects of self, and shame to get to where we are today. Desirée observes that most people play out childhood patterns in relationships, particularly by not knowing exactly what they want and what they’ll accept. She stresses the importance of shadow work and overwriting subconscious patterning to access the core of our relationship desires. Her platform helps support this kind of personal growth, and she also details additional effective healing modalities. 

We share our experiences of navigating energy dynamics, approaching big conversations with partners, and how partnerships can lead to personal growth breakthroughs. Relationships have a special way of drawing out triggers that we may not know the root of. Having a self care practice is crucial in building a relationship with yourself so that you know how to work through them. Many of us hold suppressed emotions that subconsciously control our behavior and desires. Trust me, the work is always worth it. 


Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favorite podcast platform. 

Topics Covered:

  • Desire and pleasure through the lower chakras
  • “Spark” and commitment in long-term relationships 
  • Energy dynamics, personal growth, and breaking generational patterns 
  • Our biggest relationship breakthroughs
  • Working with triggers to heal 
  • Soulmates, fate vs destiny, and why Desirée chose to soften 
  • The benshen acupuncture point 

Resources Mentioned:

Guest Info: 

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Show Transcript:

Tonya Papanikolov  00:04

Hi, welcome to the Rainbo podcast. I'm your host, Tonya Papanikolov. Rainbo and I are on a mission to upgrade humanity with fungi and expand the collective conscious. This podcast builds a virtual mycelial network of bold, open minded thinkers and seekers. I chat with experts, thought leaders, healers, scientists, entrepreneurs, spiritual teachers, activists, and dreamers. These are stories of healing, human potential and expansion, tune in route and expand and journey with us. 


Tonya Papanikolov  00:46

Hello, oh my goodness, this is a really juicy episode with Desirée from BENSHEN. And honestly, I love that this episode, basically took a completely different turn, I really love to just let episodes go with the flow and let the magic of conversation guide the way and this is an episode where that truly happened. And I just felt that I was not planning this to be a conversation. And episode is all about relationships. But that is the direction that we decided to go in. And neither of us decided that as a rehearsed thing, we just, we just let the conversation lead the way. 


Tonya Papanikolov  01:32

And we talk all about relationships and how to exist in them, how to exist in them in a way that's our most authentic selves, and really honing what we what it is we want. And she's just a beautiful open book in terms of her own journey. And we just chat a lot about our relationships with our partners. And what that looks like we talk about approaching destiny, and the beauty of what she's created vention and her relationship with the feminine and the masculine. And it is just a all around very special conversation. So I think you're gonna love it. And let me know what you think. 


Tonya Papanikolov  02:20

Always super appreciate you commenting and leaving five stars ideally, on the podcast. So please do that. If you haven't already. It is so greatly appreciated, and lets this podcast get shared with more eyes and ears and hearts. So if you've been loving it, please do that. And let's dive into the episode with Desirée. 


Tonya Papanikolov  02:43

Hello, Desir.ée Hello, hi, beauty. I'm so excited to be connecting with you. And we were just saying, while I was just saying that it feels like I know you and I'm looking forward to getting to know you more. I


Desirée Pais  02:55

know I'm so happy to be here. I feel like we've just been collecting through the interweb through social media, I've used your products, which I love. And you've been so kind to work with us and collaborate for our retreats, which everybody freaks out whenever they see Rainbo involved. And I'm just so grateful to be here.


Tonya Papanikolov  03:14

Thank you. And yeah, I love I love the beauty of all that you create. And so grateful. I know this month is all about sensuality, and so many topics. I like to just start with guests tuning in with something you're grateful for today.


Desirée Pais  03:28

I am grateful for my life. I mean, truly, I just feel really grateful for my friendships for my relationship or my community, for my home just everything I feel I wake up and I just really look around. I just think wow, it's such a blessing to just be able to wake up, have a bed either home, have a love, have my house I have my career have everything. So you know, especially lately more and more, I kind of think how can I lean more into gratitude instead of what's next? Where am I going? 


Desirée Pais  04:06

So I've been meaning it even more back to like, I'm grateful for this moment. I'm great. I used to think gratitude is so cheesy. I'm not one of those like big gratitude people but it's definitely lately I've been practising more and more gratitude every time what are you grateful for?


Tonya Papanikolov  04:20

I feel the same way in like the it can be so cheesy and kind of trite or cliche but it's also I love hearing what people are like feeling in their lives it's just like opens up something in me and I feel like for our listeners grateful for me is honestly this Taurus season has felt really, really potent and accelerated and just like since the march Eclipse, like what has transpired and moved for me feels really big.


Desirée Pais  04:50

I must score bills. So I loved like you can't just like say something like that and then leave it I'm like, Tell me more. I want to know I know that you're supposed to To be interviewing me, but I'm like, the girl on I can't do the like, Oh, it's just outside. I'm like, no, no, no, give me the Chi.


Tonya Papanikolov  05:12

Yeah, so I guess the highlight of the tea are kind of in it's, it's really been going on since the beginning of the year. So it's kind of funny that we have this conversation and I want to chat with you about sensuality, and this may theme of yours. But I think something that started to like, move energetically and just in my mind, was all this work that I've kind of done on the energetic body with like, largely feeling so tuned in with hearts, like upper chakra sphere, these energy centres are very, like turned on. 


Tonya Papanikolov  05:44

And in January, I kind of started to feel like, there's a new layer of work for me to do in the lower three chakras, and like in my womb, and in embracing sexuality, and desire and all of these things in a different way. And so that started to kind of start to trickle in, and in the ways that they do like, in my dreams in it's a long story that I won't get into at this point, but a bunch of our friends and community were in, in Costa Rica, and engaging in an Ayahuasca ceremony, I was planning on it, there's, it's a very long story, I was very much guided to not, and that was just this, like, wild, feminine energy coming inside of me being like, Absolutely do not do this right now, like, this is not for you. 


Tonya Papanikolov  06:32

And in that there was just like this, like, grounding of power. And so there's just been a lot of energy, like moving in that space and moving through shadow and moving through various aspects of like, How can I embrace this, like the wounded feminine aspects of myself and embrace that in its totality, and like, work with my shame, and bring that in, and, you know, communicate it and just like, take all of this under my wing, under the expression of who I am versus like, you know, having a whole range of other relationships with it. 


Tonya Papanikolov  07:04

So the first eclipse, I was kind of like, I felt like I was like, I was like, I got through that unscathed. It was like a week, and I was like, wow, I flew through that. That was so easy. And then it just like kind of slapped me. And then like, it really started to I just started to work with Yeah, just aspects of love and my relationship with Simon and deepening that and understanding that in just a more intimate way and having deeper conversations. Yeah. And then I got to New York, actually, for the Eclipse and there was like that earthquake and earthquakes have been this central theme. I was in quite a few earthquakes in Costa Rica. So anyways, I think like this year has just felt really deep and rich.


Desirée Pais  07:45

I love when you talk like how you touched upon so many aspects of the feminine because I was also thinking Where do you live permanently? Or where do you live? Right now it's


Tonya Papanikolov  07:53

California Topanga and we've been kind of nomadic so we're kind of now choosing where do we want to put some roots down? Yeah,


Desirée Pais  07:59

it's so interesting just how people embody different energies of where they live. You know, this is something like Grandmaster that does Grandmaster used to study with sun one time that I thought was so interesting, like every latitude and longitude has a different frequency and energy because of its relationship to the equator and where it is on that planet Earth on like, for example, Paris holds such a particular frequency, very different than the kind of sensuality that you might feel in the Italy, Italy is very different kind of sensuality might feel in Brazil, very different than the kind of sensuality or femininity that you might feel in New York versus California. 


Desirée Pais  08:35

So I was just listening to you talk. And it's just interesting to hear, despite where you live, despite where you are, you know, how it shows up in your life, too. There's always certain common themes around and it's interesting because more so in the US, there's more shame around sensuality and pleasure than there is in other places in the world. And that's something that I love that you've touched upon, like working with the shadow, working with shame, working with all of these things, because I think that those are really like the low of three chakras as a sub. 


Desirée Pais  09:06

You know, I think that sometimes there's different layers there's always like entry points, you know, like my entry point the sensuality was through a more superficial level, not superficial in terms of, quote unquote bein, I mean, superficial, like, top layer, level of like, within us beauty, I'm gonna it's going to be about hair and clothes. And those are all important because how you adorn yourself, however that means to you is also important. It's like, how you address the altar of your being every day with you put on the altar. But then similar to you in the last couple of years, it's been like, going into the deeper layers of the shame, the guilt. 


Desirée Pais  09:45

Everyone says, you know, a certain girl talks about it like desires, really the Avantika figuring out what do you really desire? What do you really want and releasing the shame from it? And I'm a very intellect realising type of persons, I have to remember to get into my body too, because I can solve intellectualise Everything. And it's been interesting, especially being in relationship. Now, it's a totally different frequency of relationship to sensuality and pleasure. And I'm really passionate and excited about trying to learn, how do we work with so many people, one on one and clients and through my community, and also just from friends and things I've heard and relationships not working out, and people not asking for what they want, and not being able to communicate. 


Desirée Pais  10:36

And also some people feeling like the spark goes out a certain point, I'm like, do these things really have to happen? And where does it start? You know, and I'm really passionate about all of that. And I love with the saddle. And I think that we kind of like all catch these waves, it seems like a lot of people are really interested in going from the like, upper levels of heart of them, which is important too. But now like, okay, there's less fear around going into the shadow, I think culturally as well. So


Tonya Papanikolov  11:05

Simon and I have been together for seven years this year, which is so incredible. And just like mind, mind boggling. You've been with your partner for a couple years,


Desirée Pais  11:14

a year and a half year,


Tonya Papanikolov  11:17

by the way. Yeah. Like, I'm just curious what you said about I think relationships not working out. We've him and I have been chatting about that a lot lately, because we're in California. And it's just like, there's just so many people around us like that either aren't married, and that's wonderful, or are looking for love or are actually not so much that we know, but just friends of friends who are like, Oh, this person's divorced, and this person's not going through this. 


Tonya Papanikolov  11:41

And so him and I are chatting about like, wow, we really, we really, it's really important to us to be together like to be honest about like, what how this all this stuff around us makes us feel and like what we want for our partnership long term. So I'm curious what you like, if you can say more about your thoughts on like, does the spark really go out? Like what do you think that level of commitment and partnership looks like?


Desirée Pais  12:06

It's so funny, because I was single for eight years. And I think that it's kind of like we ask your friend for advice. And they're like the single person, but they have better advice because they're just like going through the motions of a and then a better advice. But I'm just like laughing It's like the blind leading the blind sometimes. We're like, all of our friends are giving each other advice, they'll be like, hear from our therapist, that we're just like, never say, like, don't do that. 


Desirée Pais  12:33

And like we're doing it on the side. You know, I'm I'm also Scorpio I don't like to label, but I think just it's in my blood to be interested in relationships, sex intimacy. I'm just interested in gleaning in general relating, and I could write a book on this type, just get very excited talking about this. But taking a step back, like, let's go back to what you talked about, about desire and pleasure, first, second, third chakra from that space. I think the very first issue or the very first thing to think about, and thing that I see most often is, as the length that I personally experienced myself, is that I was settling, I was not clear about what I wanted, and how I wanted to be treated. 


Desirée Pais  13:16

And I was settling for sort of breadcrumbs that I thought was love or thought was intimacy because I was playing out childhood patterns. So I do see a lot of people in relationship just playing our childhood patterns, a great book to if anybody's curious, where did that how would I get on that a great book, it's called attached, there's a red magnet on the cover. And it is a phenomenal book that will help you understand how your childhood beliefs or views of the world just particularly the views of relationship will affect your current relationships. So I was playing out the attachment of anxious attachment, attracting avoidance, and just constantly settling. 


Desirée Pais  13:58

And the took a really tough breakup, okay, a year and a half ago, right before I met my partner, and also growing with it. And you know what I mean? Like, really doing the inner work, really learning about self worth really trying to level up in those areas. I used to be so scared to even be on the first state, like, what are you looking for? I was like, oh, you can't say that. That's too much. I was really like, I had to play cool. You had to only count just looking for whatever, you know, I know my boyfriend. We sat down. I was like, I'm looking for a relationship. And he was like, Oh, okay. It didn't mean I was looking for it with him. I was just being really clear about what I want. 


Desirée Pais  14:35

Whether it was him or not, not my business. Do you know what I mean? My business was to just be clear. And that was the struggle for so long. So I think the first step was getting really clear about what I was working on those old childhood wounds that was causing me to not be clear about it. I think this is really like where the work is. Because if you don't work on that You're gonna just be operating from subconscious patterning and programming. And what happens is a lot of people don't work on the inner child stuff, or the shadow or etc, etc. 


Desirée Pais  15:10

And they choose partners that mimic that. Or that will fulfil that subconscious narrative. And then both partners don't have the tools to really understand that dynamic. We're talking about from a personal level, that's step one is, Are you clear about who you are? And what you want? Do you have strong boundaries? are you negotiating your self worth? are you negotiating your boundaries? Are you afraid to ask for what you want, and you need? That's something we want. If you're in partnership, as you know, it's a whole nother rodeo, because then it's like, here are two people that deeply love each other. And also individuals have their own shit to work out. 


Desirée Pais  15:51

And most people run them on when things get hard. So I'm sure that you can probably relate to this, that it's like, we live in a world that is so what's next? What's next? What's next? What's next, that people just run away, the moment that something gets challenging. You have to choose to get through that shit. And it's not easy sometimes. And it's really scary. And you both come up against each other's blocks and triggers and traumas and wounds. And I think the most important thing is the person you're choosing either from the beginning or now in relationship, you were choosing to be together, and you are choosing to work on it together and work through it together. It can't be one sided. They can't be I'm just gonna do the right person.


Tonya Papanikolov  16:32

Yeah. Yeah. I love what you said. So like, something that that brings me to as well is like the energy dynamics. So this was really fascinating for me to when it finally clicked because I was in just like, not ideal relationships before meeting Simon. And right after, like a really tough one. I went to therapy, and I went to my therapist every day for three years. 


Tonya Papanikolov  16:58

Sorry, sorry, no, every every week for three, I was like, Damn girl. Good. Oh, wow. No, the crazy Adam presa. You know, she was epic. But she was covered by Oh, hip in Canada. So it was like, it was such a rare occurrence that I could get in with her. But anyways, what we worked on for so long was getting me to a place where I could understand the dynamics that played out in my household. And how that even though it was not what I, my childhood was great. 


Tonya Papanikolov  17:32

My parents were awesome. But even still, in whatever way you have to choose at some point to like, understand what these dynamics are and how they affect you, and how they have potentially allowed you to choose your partners up to this point. And maybe that's worked. Maybe that hasn't, for me it hadn't. And so I started to understand that the dynamic that was painful was actually it was like just a well grained path. That was just my easy path to go down. If you know what I mean. Like, that was the energy that I knew and accepted. And that was my that was safety. 


Tonya Papanikolov  18:04

To me, that was just something that was easy. And so in the rewiring of that whole experience. It was, yeah, that shifted, that whole pattern in me shifted. And I could actually be attracted to a different type of person, which was very interesting.


Desirée Pais  18:20

Yeah, I think that it's like, it's interesting is the moment that you get it, it just clicks for you. It's like something in your brain clicks. And my boyfriend and I had a disagreement not long ago. And it was really interesting, because I was like, it was such a real time moment of his subconscious had a Meritor that even if I was saying something, he could understand what I was saying it just like, the story was so strongly let me talk about this and Kundalini Yoga like, and then we finally had a breakthrough, but it took patient, it took me having that knowledge of like, someone's like, his subconscious, literally cannot hear what I'm saying, you know, yeah. 


Desirée Pais  19:00

And I like what you said, though, about your parents, because it's important to note that we could have the best childhood, and our parents were still just doing the best that they could with what they knew and how they were raised. I love my parents, I adore my parents. And they still both have their own shit. Do you know what I mean? And they're the poorest wonderful parents, but I definitely picked up on their patterns, you know, and the work that we would I do, anybody who's interested in personal growth or evolving is literally breaking generational patterns, you know, which I think is really powerful to think about, but I love these kinds of conversations, because it's not just how am I changing my life? How am I changing? You're literally breaking a generational pattern. Yeah,


Tonya Papanikolov  19:44

yeah. I just got goosebumps it is. It's so juicy to go into that too. And then also you love so much more when you can show up with like, the breadth of understanding for like my grandmother and what she went through and, like just the whole family lineage It's like, I actually fell deeper in love with everybody, just knowing that like, this is what it took to get me here and like this opportunity that I have to heal for all of us and to recognise these patterns in this self awareness and the gifts that that has ultimately led me to in this moment to its beautiful, beautiful work that can really connect you deeper to your family.


Desirée Pais  20:22

What do you think is one of the biggest breakthroughs you've had in your relationship with their partner? biggest breakthrough, they just felt important for people like our listeners, I really needed to see other people and hear like, we've done it, we made it through this, we continue to choose each other, you know, and I think it's very rare and our time and space, maybe one out of 10 people have that. So I'm just I love hearing other people's stories of like, we realised that we both had this pattern. And we were like, we had this communication thing we broke through that childhood. I just love hearing such


Tonya Papanikolov  20:55

a good question. I mean, yeah, seven years, there has never ever been a moment for Simon and I, where we have ever wanted to be with anybody. Like, it's been super clear from the get go like, This is who I want to spend my life with. And truthfully, and I've never even Yeah, really opened up about this on the podcast. But the moment that that was ever going to be a question for me was if he didn't want to have kids. And so there was a moment a couple of years ago, where he was really uncertain. 


Tonya Papanikolov  21:25

And I had kind of changed my mind over the course of like, not being sure, but I was like, probably, but like, I'm not sure to being really, really sure, as I saw my sister start to have a family and just like really feeling deeper into the power that I have to be this to create, essentially. So that was a bit of a sticky moment for a point in time where like, stuff came up, where I did start to be like, Well, I've never felt this, like I'm actually craving that he wanted this I'm craving that it could be like this, that I see that this person has it like that. 


Tonya Papanikolov  21:57

And, you know, like that person's partner really wants to be a father. I mean, that for me, there was like real conversations where I was like, this is either, yeah, like I'm gonna, I need to, I'm gonna go find somebody else. Like, if this is something that I know that I know, I need and want to do in my life. So there was a moment of that. And I think for him, I could see that his programming was because of his, he hadn't really worked through the relationship, like how his family split up. 


Tonya Papanikolov  22:26

And so he was just playing through this story that like we just, we talked so much through and continue to talk about, which is a lot about like breaking down the patterns of like his subconscious programming of what's possible of what he'll be able to do have what a happy family looks like of, you know, all of those stories. So that's been a very big one for us.


Desirée Pais  22:47

And I think so many people can relate to that. And it's inspiring to hear that, you were able to communicate through that and kind of get to another side on that. And also, if it didn't work out, that's also great, because you were able to get clear about what you want. And instead of being in a situation that wasn't able to allow you to fulfil a part of you. And I think that, you know, these are such important conversations people to have in the beginning of relationships, I think a lot of people don't, maybe you guys did, I'm not saying you did, I'm just saying that. I know a lot of people, women in particular, were free to say like, I'm looking for a relationship, I want to have kids, I want to get married, because there's this idea that I've been saved up like this, it's too much. 


Desirée Pais  23:31

But I've seen too many girls violence, be in situations where they're like, engaged, or they're with someone long term, and then they find out this person doesn't want this, or this person doesn't want that. And that's so painful. And that's sort of a discussion from the beginning. But then what's the flip side, I love hearing your story, because you guys were together for so long that maybe people get together younger. And that's not something that we're really thinking about in that moment. So it's again, something where it's like a choice of like, we want to be together. So we're gonna talk about this versus just at a very reactive tempo that I had to work through because I also have a lot of trauma that has forced me to shut my heart down and protect myself. 


Desirée Pais  24:17

So at the when we first started dating the moment, something didn't feel good, I was like, I'm out of here, you know, and he was like, sit down. Or, you know, just go through it, you know, and I actually called an a partner that could help me get through my triggers with humour and he didn't make me like crack up, you know, but he can see through it and he was just like, where are you going? Like, we're gonna go


Tonya Papanikolov  24:44

he's like a he's a funny person. I feel like I know this through, like, you buy me up. That's really wonderful to have somebody like that can make light in serious conversations.


Desirée Pais  24:56

Women say it's a great quality to have and I think that I am such an intense person. I also have this humorous side, my dad is an Aries. And he's like the light of the party. And he's like looking really funny. And our family is really funny. And I have that in me as well. My partner brings that out. I mean, like, just the other morning, he just started working out every day and like, you know, doing push ups, eating a little, because he's a knight like, he's like a rock and roller, you know. And so now since we've met, you know, he's evolved a little bit in terms of like, the decisions he makes. And he also is just in a really expensive time in his life as well with his career. 


Desirée Pais  25:32

And so he's making some changes. And he just started like, doing the stretches and working out every day. And the other morning, I'm in the bathroom getting ready. And he comes in and just looks at me, and he's like, how does it feel to be dating and an Olympic athlete. It's just, like, get out of here. But he, I called that, before I met him, I made a list of everything I wanted. And I reflected on my past relationships in my head dated a lot of men that were super avoided, have at the moment of any sort of conflict whatsoever. I'm a pretty emotionally intelligent person, like, I'm not gonna blow up, but the first sign of like something, but like when you're like dating, so this was all like new people. This was just like little things like, what are we, you know, I can't do that. 


Desirée Pais  26:18

That's too much. You know, I'd be like, okay, you know, drama, you know? And on a sidenote, I am very emotional, and I do have a huge I'm a Scorpio son, Leo Moon, I am a big emotion. Yeah, I needed someone that could handle that I needed someone that wasn't going to make me feel bad for that. And someone that also could help me deduce through humour. And I also later on needed to learn how to navigate my own emotional crescendo and wave like, now that I'm in partnership, because I wasn't going to blow up and beginning of dating, but in partnership, I had a temper when I would get upset because now my life is the person responsible by someone else. So became even more defensive. Like how dare you mess with them? Who they kind of down? You know, it's okay. Not in a dismissive way. Just like I totally get


Tonya Papanikolov  27:12

  1. Yeah, just like, it's like, the routines, the patterns. Like why are we eating at 9pm? I don't know. Yeah, oh, my gosh, yeah.


Desirée Pais  27:20

I sent it specifically on my list. It's almost not afraid of conflict. And who gets to conflict with humour. So that made me feel safe and secure and not like, an actually really healed a part of my of myself that was afraid to use my voice and past relationships, because now I feel very safe to like, express my needs, say, this is bothering me, or this doesn't feel good or express thing. And it's rippled into my life and my career and I agree error. Yeah,


Tonya Papanikolov  27:52

totally. There's like, no wrong thing. It's funny too, because I feel that it's so much about for me anyways, like the ability to go into a deep conversation or have an argument or whatever. Like, when I get into that space, I get really sensitive to delivery, because I just want to, like, have a conversation and have the conversation without, like, you know, I can definitely get angry, but it takes a lot to get me angry, because I can just be like, let's just have a conversation. I'm like, you know,


Desirée Pais  28:26

I'm just like, Oh, what, you know, I've had to learn how to be like, a conversation.


Tonya Papanikolov  28:33

There's also like, beauty, as long as there's beauty in the expression of just like, both are good. Like the thing and then on my end, it's like, as long as that is true, and it's not a suppression, you know, of like not being able to access the anger of big feelings. And it's, it's not that I don't but um, it's just funny in relationship I find sometimes there's what will upset me will be more so delivery of like, tone.


Desirée Pais  28:58

I think the concept of delivery is so important. I think I love that you brought that up, because one of the biggest things I've learned and being in this relationship as like, he's not always going to have the space for our conversation. That doesn't mean he doesn't care. And that doesn't mean that you have loved me, it just means like, after a long day of work, like is maybe not the best time to be like, can we talk about things, and just having a little bit more sensitivity to him as well. And like, of course, if it's a really sensitive topic, he will be like, let's do it. 


Desirée Pais  29:30

I just know that he's not going to be the most receptive. I want to have a moment I feel really connected with him. And I feel like he's really listening and really receptive. I'm a little bit more conscientious about what's my delivery and what's my method? Not every time did I mean sometimes is I'm just like, we need to talk and he's like, oh, okay, you know, and a long day, and I go into it knowing that I'm probably not going to get like he might be a little more defensive but he's tired. versus if it's like, Saturday afternoon, and we're having brunch and I could be like, Hey, let's talk. 


Desirée Pais  30:07

And I honestly, I am so reactive, it runs on my family, like my father is, you know, he can go from zero to 102 seconds, you know, he gets spicy. And I definitely, it's like funny we like become the things we don't like, and our parents and I had to really like, learn how to deal with that, because part of my father, it's culturally comes from a very, like, you know, different culture than what I grew up more around, which was my mother, who's a very independent American Hippie type of vibe, you know, My father immigrated from Ukraine when he was 15 or so. 


Desirée Pais  30:43

Okay with that. So it's completely different, cultural. And so, in relationship, when we first started dating, we first started really having disagreements, I would get such a temper, and it was something that I was not proud of. And I wanted to just be vulnerable about that, because it was something that I was not proud of. And it was really hard for me. But it was something I was committed to working through, that I got denied therapy, and my mentor is on, it was a trauma trigger. It was truly a trauma trigger of like, feeling like I needed to protect myself. 


Desirée Pais  31:19

So I would just explode, you know, or get really upset or very emotional. And I've had to learn to like, take care of myself in a way that I can. I'm allowed to be upset, I'm allowed to have feelings. But we had a really big disagreement one time, and I got really, really upset versus just coming to the table and being like, Hey, this is really bothering me. Can we talk about that. And I got really upset, really emotional. And we talked it out that he kind of just looked at me, and I'm very loving, but he was just trying to show me a pattern. Did that get you what you want? 


Desirée Pais  31:58

You know, because it took us a really long time to repair. And he wasn't trying to blame me at all, because he was so compassionate understand me it was more just a reflection like that we actually did you have the experience you want. Like because if I if I come up that way, he's gonna be defensive immediately. So it wasn't coming from a space of malice or me, it was just such an amazing reflection of like, oh, and he doesn't for himself to Oh, when I have that I don't get the result I want. You know, and it's just such a great way to reflect in relationship in a loving safe way, not like in the middle of argument, but just kind of showing me like, oh, that didn't get me the result I wanted the result I wanted was to feel heard and connected, not defended, you know. So it's the type of partner that can reflect supplied safely? Totally.


Tonya Papanikolov  32:48

Do you find that you ever get into places where you're triggered? And you're like, I don't know, like, I don't know where this is coming from like, and then you sit with it? And like, what's that? What does that experience like for you? Where it's maybe not so obvious, because I think for a lot of like, I just don't think he really thought of the day like I had this trigger. And I was like, I really had to assignment kind of showed me that like it was a pattern. And I was like, Oh, yeah. And I sat with it, like I figured it out. But I mean, you know, it's a process of of that like that self awareness, self discovery process. So what is your why, like, what do you recommend for people who are like, noticing they're triggered, but they're like, I don't know where and my subconscious this is,


Desirée Pais  33:31

you know, this is why it's so important to have some form of daily practice, and therapy, and all the tools you can get, like, I think a lot of the wellness industry and the self help industry focuses upon like manifestation or getting what you want, or creating your dream life or feeling good in your body or vitality. But meditation is cleaning the garbage out of your mind. Like it is about having a relationship with you and you and being able to and of course, I love all those other parts as well. 


Desirée Pais  34:06

You know, I use all of those other parts in every aspect of my life using my self care practice for all of those other elements. And at the same time, having a some sort of practice is going to give you an relationship to yourself, to be able to have self investigation when you meditate or when you have some form of self personal panic. It doesn't have to be sitting on the cushion. It could be going for a long drive, it could be whatever is a new have time for you undistracted. 


Desirée Pais  34:33

Do you know what I mean? And you can have that moment of self reflection of like, where is this coming from? What am Why do I do this? A lot of us have so many repressed emotions, and suppressed emotion that we react to things and we are not taking time to go into those places, and even just feel what's what we're feeling. And we also live in a time where we can distract ourselves a million ways and run away from arsenal. wasn't a million ways. So someone feels uncomfortable. And like this feeling, boom, just I'm gonna get on my phone start scrolling free dopamine, versus, Oh, this feels uncomfortable. Let me lean into that and sit with that for a second. And you might start ugly crying, you might start feeling terrible, but at least you went into it. 


Desirée Pais  35:20

Because if you don't go into that it's gonna perpetuate. So I've experienced quite a bit of trauma growing up around loss and death, and loss, a lot of people really tragically through drugs through overdose or through just really traumatic. The lives were cut short for various reasons. So I have a huge trauma around loss. And it was really why it was shut down and why. So that trigger will show up in very strange ways. It'll show up and I'll get really OCD some days like, like, look, I was trying to, I have a couple of computers that I wanted to, like not a couple of computers, I have one main computer and then I have another old desktop that I wanted to get rid of. 


Desirée Pais  36:05

And he was offering to help me like, clean that out or fix it or whatever. And we turned the computer on, I realised I hadn't deleted a lot of the stuff and I got really triggered. I was like, Oh my gosh, what a tax from the people I love and lobster. So they're like, What if I have things? And I was like, Please don't touch that. And you're like, wait, what? I'm just trying to help you? And I was like, no, no, don't. And I got so triggered, I started shaking. And it was something I couldn't even imagine like a computer would do. Well, yeah. And really having the ability to like, Yeah, I think it's it's like it's those moments can be really difficult. 


Desirée Pais  36:41

And I empathise with people that have triggers that they don't know where they're coming from. And that's why I will always be one of the biggest proponents of therapy, I think that you are able to access therapy them. And there's so many great resources that we can utilise these days. I think it's so important. I can't stress it enough.


Tonya Papanikolov  36:59

Any particular therapy you do, or they really


Desirée Pais  37:03

depends. I mean, I like when I lost my friend a couple years ago, I immediately got into trauma therapy, I was just like, immediately, like if I do not deal with this, but I'm going to be really fucked up. And I was like, I'm gonna, this is gonna fuck me up if I don't deal with this emotionally because it was such a huge loss that I started a specific trauma therapist or like I'm in she actually did EMDR. But it was like just knowing that like, this is a trauma. I'm gonna go into trauma therapy. 


Desirée Pais  37:33

Yeah, yeah. My other mentor one of them I've been with for like, 12 years now. He's more like manifestation, like create your dream life, like anything is possible. That would not be for that. Yeah. Yeah. So know where to go ask for help. As far as I'm going through this, do you have any resources, we have so many things available, I'm also really getting into tapping EFT, because that's something you can do on your own. And there's tonnes of free resources, obviously, but something really intense, I would suggest to get support in any shape or form. But something where it's like you have these little triggers that you want to work through and you don't really know where that where they've touched in the mind. The EFT Emotional Freedom Technique. Tapping is such a great tool to have, what do you like to use? It's


Tonya Papanikolov  38:17

a really good one. I haven't tapped in a while.


Desirée Pais  38:19

There's so many great resources.


Tonya Papanikolov  38:21

There's so many there's like the workout which have you heard of her. So I think her name is like the workout which she does somatic, like nervous system type stuff. So I haven't started with her. But she has a course that I've been thinking about doing. There's been so many practices, like honestly, dancing, like actually getting into my body to feel something and move something through has been really important for me. And then I've done a lot of like talk therapy with Dr. Kay, who is my long term therapist, and trying to understand like nervous system safety to like, when does an environment trigger me for aspects of things, but


Desirée Pais  38:57

that's really important to know what triggers do. You know, I think a lot of people don't even know that you can have some sort of, I don't wanna say control, because we can't really control anything. But we can have some sort of boundaries around knowing Oh, this triggers me. So how can I create some boundaries around that, while also knowing that there's some work to be done there? Or in my relationship? There's certain things that trigger me that in the past, like I know, is my stuff. Do you know what I mean? Like, I know, it's Oh, yeah. 100% myself, because he's just like, I love you. I think you're wonderful and puts the pork wave on. I'm just kidding. 


Desirée Pais  39:34

But like, they like, like, he works in nightlife. And that's a whole industry that used to trigger me in the past. And you know, just because people are out and about and there's not I'm just so fortunate that he is so committed to like making me feel like he's there like he checks them and he like sends me selfies. And he's very, like, cute about us. And yeah, I just really sweet like, he texts me if he's out until 2am working or something like, he keeps me posted. You know, I never asked for that. But I have asked for things like sometimes I'm travelling, for example, which can be, you know, I'm like, I'm gone, but it's gonna, you know, that's my own stuff because of my own child sees that. 


Desirée Pais  40:19

Yeah. And there was one time when he was like, literally hilarious, but it's hilarious now in retrospect, but in the moment, it fucked me up, you know, where he went out with his buttons. And it was like his best friends. And they were just like, they all been working a lot. They had a really fun night. And he was checking in throughout the night, you know, like, sending me the funniest selfie, like, every time he connected with a new friend, he's like, Hey, we're here. That's just also part of his personality. I was in LA. So I was the hub, you know. And then it was like, 3am, and they were still out. And he hadn't told me like, I'm heading home now. 


Desirée Pais  40:57

And so then he finally texted me and was like, I'm heading home. And my ask is, like, I want to know when he gets home, mostly because I want to make sure he makes it home safely up late at night, you know, like, just late at night and make sure you make it home safely. He texts me when he was leaving. He's like, I'm going home now. I love you, you know? And I was like, hey, just let me know when you get home safely. And his liking phone died and Uber three blocks away from our apartment.


Tonya Papanikolov  41:24

I like I know, I know it I know the feeling. And


Desirée Pais  41:27

he just poor guy just like passed out. You know? And yeah, it's like innocently, just like sleeping. I'm having been I've had so much loss. I'm like, did he ride a bike home? Did something happened and the Uber driver, like, I was losing my mind. I'm like, you know, freaking out. He wakes up. Finally he's like, Good morning love of my life. How are you? Because the sun is shining. I miss you so much. I was like, I see I went to hell. And back last night, your fucking phone was dub. I didn't know that. 


Desirée Pais  41:57

And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I had to hide the moment I got home. And I just said to him, I was like, please just like, pack something and get home. It just helps me feel safe. You know that only that you're safe. And you're okay. It's important to you to ask for what you want, knowing what triggers you. In the past, I would have tried to like be like, Oh, that's my only like, that's my stuff. I need to work on that. It's like, no, it's like, I know, that's my style. I do work on and it's okay to say in safe proximity. Like, if you were like a jealous person insecure, and you can't be like, don't hang out with your girlfriends. That's like, not the right the dynamic, right?


Tonya Papanikolov  42:32

No, that's so beautiful. I mean, it's to have a partnership where I think it was like I was listening to Teal Swan speak about relationships a little while ago. And she was saying something beautiful about how like, as much as a man or a partner, like, in whatever dynamic like as much as they can provide this feeling of safety. It allows for this unfolding of like, of how somebody can just unfold when they feel safe. And then like, it's like a flower blooming. 


Tonya Papanikolov  43:02

And that in turn also just creates like the health of a dynamic where there's both like togetherness and independence and trust and understanding and like, acceptance that like you've been through this, and I'm gonna hold that, and I've been through this and you're gonna hold that. It's key. It's huge.


Desirée Pais  43:18

And I think that you might be able to relate to this when I also read about this in the book attached about how I was on the other end of the spectrum, prior to really deciding wanting to be in relationship where I was the tough, independent woman like, I don't need this, I don't need that. Blah, blah, blah. And I loved the book attached and it gave me permission or like no, you that's like the pendulum swings too far. You know, like, we need people, that's fine. 


Desirée Pais  43:41

Like we actually need people we need love. We need connection, we need intimacy, we need romance, we need family, we need community to say I'm independent or anything that's this pendulum swung too far. So I realised it's okay for me to go, I want a relationship, I want connection, I want intimacy. And in the book, it actually talks about that truly you become when you have that foundational security, like you feel safe with your partner, you both feel safe in each other, you can actually blossom more in the world and flourish more. 


Desirée Pais  44:13

And I've seen that in our partnership, how much We've both grown in the last year and a half. It has just blown me away how much room for growth happens in your personal life when you are in a safe and healthy partnership. And it's so important. I'm literally thinking like how much energy in my past relationships I wasted are used as trying to get basic needs met, and my relationship and now that all of those needs are met. And if something's not being that they can we can easily have a conversation about that and how much more I feel safe to go run around the world and how much more he feels safe to go exactly be the king and I can be the queen and we can both have, you know, this incredible collaboration of dough. dinar dream lives.


Tonya Papanikolov  45:01

I love everything you just said so much. And I feel like it's so poignant for a few friends specifically of mine right now, who very much resonate with that archetype of like extremely independent woman, one of them's actually reading attached right now as well. But I want to know about like, when you made that transition, like, were you consciously like, Okay, I want to soften right now, like, how did you? What was that process of like, writing the list and being like, at what stage did you realise like, Okay, I've been super independent, and I need to, I want to do X, Y, and Z. Like, how did that unfold?


Desirée Pais  45:36

That's a last person I dated. I really liked that person. And I think they really liked me as well. I think that they just had a lot of just classic avoidant, you know, and it was just frustrating. If it didn't seem that way. In the beginning, it just seemed like a slow and steady burn. And then they was literally like, the bros pass the script between each other have like, I'm not ready, or I don't know, the blah, blah, blah. And I had a moment where I was like, I have heard the script about 40 times. So I was like, they're not the problem. I'm the problem at this point. 


Desirée Pais  46:09

Because in the US, like, not allowing that behaviour to be okay, but more like, wow, I'm clearly choosing this kind of person. Like, I'm choosing this dynamic. And that's where attach really helped me because I learned in that book that my heart felt like, love was anxiety. Love was waiting to be chosen lovers like I had to prove that I was good enough for them to be in relationship with me. Whether that was proving I'm good enough to work or proving I'm pretty enough or proving like, all of it was like, choose Me Pick Me. my nervous system associated that feeling of anxiety with romantic love. And reading attached. I kind of had this moment where I was like, Oh, wow, like that. Feeling? 


Desirée Pais  46:56

What have I just felt? I think it was actually this is gonna be interesting to share, because I don't think I really vocalise it. But my friendships have changed a lot, where I had started surrounding myself with women that were much more like my personality, big, bold, fun, funny, playful, they loved me so much, and I loved them so much. And it was just for who we were, it wasn't for our jobs, it wasn't for what it looked like, it was just truly like, it's supportive and loving friendships. And as I that's how I want to build my relationship, I really feel like this person is my best friend. I just want to feel like I give you a silly example. 


Desirée Pais  47:35

But I was like, I want to be able to text them all day long. And I want them to text me and just be like, so excited to just talk to me, you know, just like, I'm so excited to talk with my girlfriends. And it was just a different feeling. You know, and when I met him, I will be honest, my initial reaction was like, Oh, he's really nice, you know, and my initial reality show


Tonya Papanikolov  47:57

the exact same way. Exactly. Yeah, it was just kind of


Desirée Pais  48:01

like, I saw myself want to go for something that didn't feel good or easy. And I said, No, lean into this. I'm really happy with that.


Tonya Papanikolov  48:10

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. I love that this whole conversation has turned into basically just a relationship, ship, a podcast about relationships, which is beautiful. And I wanted to ask you about just if you can like riff on Destiny, what you think about soulmates and your take on Destiny? Just go


Desirée Pais  48:32

big, you know, just a small question to throw out there. I don't like the idea that we have one soulmate. I think that that personally, obviously everybody can believe what they want. There are many theories and many ideas. I'm just personally sharing from my perspective, my experience, I think we have many soulmates. I think that we have many people that we can love. There's different forms of love. There's different types of love. You've seen those people have met someone they've loved someone that didn't work out, they've met someone again, they've upped down. 


Desirée Pais  49:07

You know, I do think that there are people that we can connect deeper with, like, I definitely feel like my partner is a soulmate. I also have friends that I know are my soulmates. I know that the idea of the soul mate, like narrative can be a little tricky because it can be sad for people when a relationship doesn't work out and they thought that that person was the one and I was dating someone on and off who actually passed away and that was someone that I love deeply and cared deeply about. And they were so made in one way. And my best ones that I have in my life or my soulmates my partner is a soulmate he footballs so much of my soul in a way that I never thought was possible


Tonya Papanikolov  49:55

with parents can be soulmates. Yeah, my mother


Desirée Pais  49:58

and my mother And I love my father. I love them so much. However, my mother's soulmate for sure, because she and I have both healed so much trauma together. My mother has a deep history of trauma loss and abandonment. And when I lost my father, and it was sort of like my term, do you know, I didn't say that lightly. But I was grieving so hard. She had suppressed so much of her grief, because she had been through so much trauma that I actually showed her a different way to grieve. She also her parents loved her when she was, like 10 years old. 


Desirée Pais  50:35

They literally were just like, we're out, you know. So for various reasons. And so her having me is we're like best friends is a soulmate journey, as well. So I just like to clarify like, because I don't want people to get tripped up in this concept that like their partner. I hear it a lot like, Oh, I feel something that I've never felt before. I bet if you told me your last fight relationship, you also said that.


Tonya Papanikolov  51:03

Yeah, yeah. I shouldn't say when somebody asked me the other day. And I think there's a lot of people looking for love looking for partnership. Both women and men, friends of mine that I know. And destiny.


Desirée Pais  51:18

Now I think destiny as you can make your destiny, I think that, yeah, it's interesting, because I feel like we have some control over it. And then we have no control over, I think that those I hire, I call it the golden thread, like the blue. Look back, you're exactly where you meant to be, for whatever reason, like everything led you to this moment. So it's like there are certain things that are life altering, and life changing. 


Desirée Pais  51:44

And at the same time, it's funny, because my whole career is about helping people get clear about what they want, figure out how to get it. And then at the same time, I'm like, some of this is just really divine. Like you just gotta give it up and let go and let God because there's a higher path through and it's something that we want to like be moving towards our destiny. Because there's, you know, Kundalini Yoga, we talked about this, there's fate, and there's destiny. Fate is when we don't work on our subconscious narratives. 


Desirée Pais  52:12

And we don't work on our beliefs and our stories, and we just let life happen to us. And destiny is when we take ownership of our mind, our life, our experiences, our trauma, our wounds, our stories, and we start to take ownership of it, because then we can start to make different choices. And I always like to say like, fate, for example, like every day, leave the house and you go, right and you go right and you go, right, because the only notable right destiny is when you've done enough work that one day you need the house and you go, I want something different and you go left, and you got left and you're walking down the street and suddenly nature.


Tonya Papanikolov  52:45

Piper, the last thing I wanted to touch on is I wanted to just hear you talk about vention as a point, because I didn't realise that it's this routing point of spirit into the body. And I just think that's so beautiful. And it's such a beautiful conversation of like, we haven't talked about your journey. I'm sure you've talked about it so many times. 


Tonya Papanikolov  53:03

But it's just such a beautiful I feel anchoring point for just learning a bit more about your story and how you've alchemize that into this creation this like, company, what you do specifically like that. It's an actual acupuncture point where spirit enters the


Desirée Pais  53:20

body point, the point, the literal point. Yeah,


Tonya Papanikolov  53:22

like what it is how you guys was thriving, I


Desirée Pais  53:25

was sobbing, I was an acupuncture school. At the time, I was dating a very narcissistic person. And we went through a really tough breakup. And I knew it was like in 2014, or something, or the earlier like 2000, I think like 2013 or 14. And that was a really, really toxic situation. emotionally abusive, narcissistic type of person. And I'm not when we broke up, I was in school, and I was also well, it's just to do something with my time. 


Desirée Pais  53:55

So I started the skincare line as I was just learning the skincare line or just making products and I thought I needed a name for it. And I came up with some really horrible names like, like horrible, I can't even repeat them out loud. I was trying to think of an email, I was just, you know, studying in school and I was looking through all the acupuncture points one day and just admiring how beautiful the names are. And I've come across and Ben Shan, which means root of the spirit or spirit route, it's on the gallbladder channel. And it is the point in the body where the mind and the body Connect. 


Desirée Pais  54:32

That's why it's called Spirit route. It's the point that connects the mind in the body. And it's interesting because even though I had a skincare line now benching is much more of a platform for empowerment. We do our monthly membership, which is meditation coaching accountability. We have retreats, we have immersions, we have imirt. We have treats erosions. We have workshops like no matter what we do the podcast, it's still teaching people how to connect mind and body connect their spirit to their potential can Like their vision, to their reality, and it's just always transmitted through no matter what we do. And I have such a deep admiration for how life has given me this opportunity to create community in such a way and how, even though as an acupuncture school, you're going to become an acupuncturist. 


Desirée Pais  55:21

That's not what happened. But it's still led me to be able to use the teachings and everything I learned and the knowledge of how the mind and body connect and how the mind and body works that even though I was in school for seven years, because I went part time, I'm still able to utilise all of that and everything I do, even though I don't practice acupuncture, quote, unquote.


Tonya Papanikolov  55:41

I think there's a beautiful pitch by the way. I love the Scorpio energy of like, just instant depth and going to these places and just having such an open and honest conversation with me today. I would love to spend more time with you. So let me know if you're coming to LA and I'll let you know if I'm going to be in New York and I'd love to hang in person. And just so appreciate you thank you would


Desirée Pais  56:06

love that. Thank you so much for having me on this podcast. And I am certainly you and I will see each other in person very so. Likewise.


Tonya Papanikolov  56:17

With deep gratitude, thanks for tuning into this episode. If you liked it, hit subscribe and leave us a review that is always very appreciated. Mushrooms transformed my mind and body. And if you're interested in bringing medicinal mushrooms into your life and health journey, check out for our meticulously sourced Canadian fruiting body mushroom tinctures. Until next time, peace in and peace out friends.



wellness summer retreat, Benshen, Desiree Pais, relationship healing, wounded feminine, breaking generational patterns, mother wound, father wound, shadow work, shame, EFT, mother wound, feminine shame, self care practices, self love, personal growth